Tyson vs. Holyfield

Show open: singing banter and tonight's agenda

The produced voiceover intro plays, then the hosts joke about being bad singers. The host introduces himself on air as Ben Foost and lays out the evening: an interview with the What If the Church guys from Kansas City, a carryover discussion on whether "God's will" and "God's plan" are overused, a Sioux City preacher defying the 1954 church-endorsement law, and a USA Today story on four views of God.

In-studio guests introduced; Dan Hudson is out

Two guests join in the studio, Kevin Fuller and Jared Roy, because "it takes two men to take the place of a Dan Hudson," who is away on his 25th anniversary trip. The hosts reminisce about Jared's earlier live-music appearance and tease about the production.

The Sioux City pastor and the 1954 church-endorsement law

• Should the Sioux City pastor defy the 1954 church-endorsement law to oppose the gay-marriage ruling?

The hosts summarize a Des Moines Register article: a Sioux City pastor sent flyers to around a thousand churches urging Christians to vote out the Iowa justices who legalized gay marriage, running against the 1954 law barring churches from endorsing candidates. They agree with his conviction but are put off by his tactics, especially the quote claiming the definition of marriage "belongs to the religious organizations" rather than to God.

The Koran-burning pastor, ICP's claim, and Squad Five-O

• Do the ends ever justify the means in Christian witness?

The hosts compare the Sioux City pastor to other attention-seeking spectacle: the Florida Koran-burning pastor, Insane Clown Posse's claim that they were Christians all along, and the band Squad Five-O, whose one profane lyric ended their Christian-market career. Their verdict: biblically, the ends never justify the means, and you must check with God before doing something loud in His name.

Free speech, repercussions, and the Bible-burning hypothetical

Discussion moves to the $250,000 police bill sent to the Koran-burning pastor and the idea that free speech does not shield you from consequences. A host argues Christians should be treated equally under the law if the tables were turned, but doubts Christians would react violently to Bible burning, since the Bible is words on paper, not God Himself. The film End of the Spear illustrates how forgiveness keeps the message going even when the messenger is killed.

Quiet witness versus spectacle: motives and righteous anger

The hosts ask whether spectacle-makers are after five minutes of fame, contrast Jesus' mostly soft-spoken approach with His table-flipping righteous anger, and quote John the Baptist's "Jesus must increase and I must decrease." They explain what churches may legally do politically (teach issues, not endorse candidates) and defend issue-based voter pamphlets as education, while admitting boldness does not equal effectiveness.

Can the church legislate morality? Judges, marriage, and vendors

• What should the church do when same-sex married families come to Christ?

What if the pastor had invited the judges to dinner instead of calling them out? The hosts debate whether change comes through government or through the church, note Scripture offers little for a church-versus-government posture, and imagine the hard cases ahead: same-sex married families coming to Christ, and photographers and DJs sued for refusing weddings, a trend they note is already underway in Canada.

What If the Church interview: origin story and serve day

• Can churches of different denominations genuinely believe, pray, and serve together?

Scott Jones joins by phone from What If the Church in Kansas City. The organization's pitch: what if the church believed together, prayed together, and served together, beyond denominations. It began when one church prayed for another church's staff with no strings attached; first year (2008) had 3 churches, then 11, with serve-day roots in a New Hampshire church's "A Day in the Park" giveaway of coats and goods.

What If interview: church-shopping, triads, and serve-day exposure

Brian joins the call and explains how knowing other pastors personally defuses sheep-stealing when people switch churches. Churches are grouped into triads of three that rotate preaching and pick serve sites; worship night brings everyone together. The serve day is as much exposure for suburban volunteers to urban missions as it is work, and families serving together is described as transformative.

What If interview: funding, media, anonymity, and the future

Brian details the funding model (tiered membership fees plus $2,000 held back per church for serve day) and a volunteer-built Craigslist-style project database; one serve day turned $20,000 into an estimated $60,000 in goods and services. The organization deliberately shuns media coverage, and volunteers serve under the local mission's name, not their own church's. Brian muses that exponential growth could theoretically involve all 3,000 Kansas City churches within eight years.

Post-interview debrief: grassroots prayer, egos, and megachurches

The hosts react: the grassroots, pray-first origin is what makes the model work; they joke about "drive-by praying" missions to other churches. One recounts a failed attempt to unite youth groups in the South when a Southern Baptist church never returned calls. They conclude doctrine and ego, not logistics, are what usually block church cooperation.

The five-dollar giving debate

• Should Ben keep $5 in his wallet to give away unconditionally to anyone who asks?

Ben explains his habit, carried over from last week: keep $5 in ones in his wallet at all times to give away to anyone who asks, with no qualifications. The hosts argue whether unqualified giving is generous or foolish, illustrated by a San Francisco panhandler whose sign said the money was for weed and who claimed to clear $3,000 on a good day. An email confirms What If the Church grew from small and large churches alike.

Prayer ninjas and the Pella prayer tower

Riffing on What If's church-to-church prayer visits, the hosts plan "prayer ninja" missions: black-clad teams hopping out of a van at night to pray on other churches' lawns. They discuss a 24-7 multi-level prayer tower at Second Reformed Church in Pella with a missions room ringed by world clocks, and debate whether prayer is about the place or about God being everywhere.

Do protests ever work?

• Do protests ever change anyone's mind?

Prompted by a chat message from someone "taken in" by protesters, the hosts debate protest effectiveness: Petland and Planned Parenthood protests, and the Planned Parenthood book sale's unbeatable selection of cheap books. They describe Guantanamo Bay protesters at Valley West Mall in orange jumpsuits, one dragging another by a neck chain while carrying a cross, and conclude protests raise awareness but mostly preach to the already-convinced.

Four views of God: the Baylor study

• Which of the Baylor study's four views of God is the biblical one?

The host reads a USA Today summary of Baylor researchers' findings: an authoritative God (28%), a benevolent God (22%), a critical God (21%), and a distant God (~25%). The hosts push back that an all-powerful God encompasses all four in the right situations, dispute the distant God's deism via Benjamin Franklin, and note the study never describes the biblically complete person who sees God strongly in all four ways.

God's will and God's plan: overused?

• Do Christians overuse 'God's will' and 'God's plan' as a reason not to act?
• Does God care about small decisions like which job to take?

The carryover discussion: the hosts argue Christians overuse "God's will" and "God's plan" to avoid acting, framing God as having an umbrella of options rather than a single straight-arrow path. They say God didn't render man incapable of deciding (free will), that staying within God's nature is the real test, and use Jonah, Moses striking the rock, and Stephen to show that obedience does not guarantee pleasant earthly outcomes. They also argue biblical healings were sparse and purpose-driven, not a standing promise.

Westboro's 'Crazy Train' and the gospel preached anyway

A host recounts Westboro Baptist Church members singing an Ozzy Osbourne parody at a press conference and calls them ridiculous and damaging to the church witness. Counterpoint: a passage from Philippians says that whether the gospel is preached out of selfish ambition or not, it is still preached. The segment closes on doing God's work in secret so the Father, not accolades, gets the glory.

Studio banter and preacher-story recap

Light studio business: ribbing over V-neck shirts and soda drunk into the microphone, a note that Dan Hudson is on his 25th anniversary trip to Hawaii with his wife Cheryl, and a recap of the Sioux City pastor story. The hosts land that the pastor is picking a fight with no clear legal path, and that overturning the ruling would still make Christians look like haters.

The right to refuse service

• Should business owners have the right to refuse service to anyone?

After the photographer sued for refusing a same-sex wedding, the hosts argue a business owner should be able to refuse service to anyone, while conceding the civil rights era had no "go somewhere else" option. They riff on the hidden-camera show "What Would You Do," joke about setting up stings to catch people's real reactions, and debate how bystanders would act if Christians were refused service.

Sign-off: bicyclists, five-bucks callbacks, dodgeball prayer league

Final segment: website plugs (What If the Church, Pathway Church, livefromthepath.org), a rant about unlit night bicyclists, callbacks to Ben's five-dollar habit (listeners asked him for $5 after last week's show), a scheme for a traveling dodgeball league where losing means praying for the host church, a plan to go pray for the Sioux City pastor himself, and the sign-off.