June 15, 2015 Podcast

Show open: wet Monday and the episode agenda

• What should you never say to someone who has been hurt by the church?

The produced intro voiceover and live show start come from the Pathway Studios in Johnston. The hosts riff on the rainy Monday weather, escalating into an extended bit on the word 'moist.' The main host lays out the episode plan — framed as 'Ben's not a liar week' — promising to finally cover three long-delayed Relevant Magazine articles: what not to say to someone hurt by church, modesty, and making disciples versus converts. He also previews upcoming in-studio musical guests: Foreverland next Monday and Josh Crawford the week after, with Silversyde possibly returning mid-July.

Number one: 'No church is perfect'

• Is 'no church is perfect' a harmful response to someone hurt by the church?

A host reads the Relevant Magazine article's first misguided response, 'no church is perfect,' and the article author's backstory of mission-organization abuse in Africa and a pastor who told him to lie or stay quiet. The hosts push back on the article's framing: the statement itself is true, but as an opener it skips the hurting human and switches the discussion to defending the institution. They land on order and timing — validate the harm and treat the person first, and the statement has a legitimate later place for perspective.

Number two: 'Are you working toward reconciliation?'

• Should you ask someone hurt by spiritual abuse whether they are working toward reconciliation?

A host reads the article's second response, 'are you working toward reconciliation?' The hosts agree with the article's basic premise — demanding a victim return to an abusive environment is dangerous — but reframe reconciliation as forgiveness: forgiveness is within the victim's control, reconciliation requires repentance on the other side. The consensus is that the conversation belongs eventually, never as the first thing out of your mouth, and it applies to general relationships too, not just spiritual abuse.

Number three: 'I don't want to gossip'

• Is it gossip to listen to or talk about spiritual abuse?

A host reads the article's third response, 'I don't want to gossip,' and the hosts call it a ridiculous, passive dodge — listening to someone's story is not gossip; gossip is the state of your heart when you pass it around. The discussion widens into what actually counts as spiritual abuse: parking-spot and pew skirmishes and petty relationship conflicts versus real trust violations by leadership. One host tells a Vacation Bible School story where removing a temperamental volunteer drew accusations of abuse, and the group settles on trust-given-and-violated as the working definition.

Number four: 'What are nonbelievers going to think?'

• Should the church's reputation with nonbelievers shape how abuse is handled?

A host reads the article's fourth response, 'what are nonbelievers going to think?' The hosts reject it outright: God doesn't need Christians to control his PR, and trying to substitute an idealized church for the real one produces a false witness. They argue the show's honest-faith posture is the opposite of fake-it-till-you-make-it Christianity — the strongest witness is Jesus working in imperfection. A joke about calling televangelist Creflo to ask whether his private jet is a good witness lands the point.

Number five: 'Stop being so bitter'

• Is it wrong to tell someone hurt by the church to stop being bitter?

A host reads the article's fifth response, 'stop being so bitter.' The hosts agree anger is a legitimate, even healthy, response to injustice, but argue the church tends to jump to the forgiveness step without processing what actually happened. One host shares the GriefShare 'rubber band ball' analogy: you must detangle each emotion before reaching resolution. They land on a both/and: empathize with the human emotion but don't enable wallowing — 'don't empathize, but don't enable' — and note relationships only grow in the soil of vulnerability.

Number six: 'Is this worth dividing the church over?'

• Is exposing spiritual abuse worth dividing the church over?

A host reads the article's sixth response, 'is this worth dividing the church over?' The hosts agree with the article here most strongly: protecting the church's image over its integrity disqualifies someone from leadership. One host reframes the whole list by picturing his own wife or daughter as the hurt person — you would never say these things to someone you love, so don't say them to anyone else. The main host closes by inviting listeners who have lived this to email the show anonymously so the hosts can learn where they got it wrong.

Modesty article: two sides of the same coin

• What does modesty actually mean, and who bears the responsibility for it?

A host reads from the Relevant Magazine modesty article, whose thesis is that pop culture and modesty culture are two sides of the same coin: both make it a woman's job to manage men's sexual desires. The hosts agree the culture sends mixed signals and that standards are subjective and culturally relative — a bare chest in one culture, an ankle in another. They push back against putting all responsibility on women: one host argues men should spend more time on what purity means for themselves than on what modesty means for women. The article's three warnings are read: objectification happens when women are held responsible for men's thoughts, when single standards are assumed across cultures, and when women are made ashamed of their bodies.

Sponsor break

Mid-show break: the hosts point listeners to livefromthepath.org and the 99.3 The Truth Network broadcast. They thank sponsors Bob Eisenhower of the Eisenhower team (eisenhowerteam.com) and Westfield Veterinary Hospital (westfieldvethospital.com).

Modesty wrap-up: talking past each other

Back from the break, the hosts recall the 'Modest is Hottest' book from a modesty conversation years ago. One host reflects that these debates are rarely productive because both sides talk past each other, fighting over extremes nobody is actually defending. Another notes that even in cultures where women wear burkas, abuse still happens — the problem is men without boundaries, not hemlines. A co-host addressed as 'Boopa' is asked whether he has anything before the third article.

Disciples article: Jesus didn't want converts

• What is the difference between a convert and a disciple?

A host reads the Relevant Magazine article 'We're Called to Make Disciples, Not Converts' at length, with the room derailing to mock the author's emo, vampire-like author photo and the site's sidebar ads. The article argues the church has watered down the gospel into comfortable 'fire insurance,' quotes Dietrich Bonhoeffer ('when Christ calls a man, he bids him come and die') and 1 Corinthians 13:11, and lays out the converts-vs-disciples contrast list: converts go to church, disciples are the church; converts cheer from the sidelines, disciples are in the game. The hosts agree they can't argue with it.

The pendulum swing and the Great Commission

• Are churches actually making disciples, and how would they know?

One host offers a pendulum-swing caution: the church has swung from 'convert, convert, convert' toward discipleship, which is good, but overcomplicated systems and classes risk disqualifying genuinely early-stage disciples. He walks through the Great Commission in Matthew 28 — going, baptizing, teaching them to obey — arguing every study and conversation is already discipleship, and the missing piece is intentionality about next steps. The group wrestles with whether the imperative is to create discipleship opportunities or to ensure something actually happens inside them.

Event-integrated vs life-integrated discipleship

The hosts argue the real problem is scope: discipleship has been packaged into events and programs rather than integrated into life. The church cafe downstairs, the Quickie Mart, the Sunday classroom — all should be disciple-making contexts, not just the programmed ones. People are afraid to speak because they think they need the full outline and all the answers, when the call is simply to have the conversation wherever life happens.

The chasm: are we actually following Jesus?

The hosts chase the 'chasm' — what is actually missing. One offers the food analogy: converts are fed, disciples feed themselves, and mature disciples feed others who feed others. They discuss Jesus thinning the crowd after feeding the 5,000, the 12, the 72, Pentecost's 3,000, and Paul's model of appointing leaders and moving on. The landing: it is not a program tweak — the inputs determine the outputs, and the answer is passionately following Jesus so others can follow you following Christ ('follow me as I follow Christ'). The episode closes with thanks to a Pete and the sponsors.

Sign-off

The host signs off, thanking Bob Eisner of the Eisner team and Westfield Veterinary Hospital, and closes with the show's benediction: 'Be faithful in the means. God will handle the ends.'